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Thread: 2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatchaman View Post
    Probably not this year. Tough for relievers to get in period. But if you look at his stats, especially ERA and K/IP, he should be considered one of the best if not the best left handed closer.
    Left handed isn't a factor in these votes. Hoffman isn't in an got 67% of the votes last year. Lee Smith is at 34%. I doubt Wagner ever makes it.

  • #102
    I'd have a hard time voting for any reliever except maybe for Rivera.

  • #103
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    PED or not, Bonds was the best player I've ever seen. He was also great when he was a skinny kid.

  • #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck of Death View Post
    If you're ignoring PEDs and putting roger and bonds in, don't you kind of have to include Sosa as a 600 hr guy?
    lot of people make the argument that bonds and clemens were HOF caliber players prior to their PED usage, whereas sosa was not. sosa also had only the one elite tool. but, 600 is a lot of $#@!ing homeruns.

  • #105
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    Ballots were due 12/31, so why is there no announcement until 1/18?

  • #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Mizzou415 View Post
    I'd have a hard time voting for any reliever except maybe for Rivera.
    $#@! the world if Rivera isn't a first-ballot, 95% vote HOF'er. I"m on record as supporting both Hoffman and Smith for inclusion, but I understand the argument against. But River is a top-100 all-time player, at any position.

  • #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhatAtUT View Post
    lot of people make the argument that bonds and clemens were HOF caliber players prior to their PED usage, whereas sosa was not. sosa also had only the one elite tool. but, 600 is a lot of $#@!ing homeruns.
    Sosa was actually a really good hitter in his prime not just hr's. But he isn't in the same conversation as Bonds. He would be with McGwire though.

    Bonds power never amazed me as much as how he commanded the strike zone/plate as a hitter. Never seen anyone do it the way he did with the most controlled swing ever.

  • #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by capnamerca View Post
    $#@! the world if Rivera isn't a first-ballot, 95% vote HOF'er. I"m on record as supporting both Hoffman and Smith for inclusion, but I understand the argument against. But River is a top-100 all-time player, at any position.
    I'm really curious to see how that plays out and I agree with you. But there were 7 $#@!nuts who didn't vote for Griffey either.

  • #109
    I got a chance to attend Ryan's HOF ceremony and toured the HOF before it. Sosa and McGwire got an entire area dedicated to them. They might not make get a plaque, but they got more than most. I'm surprised more people don't bring up that exhibit when knocking Selig, MLB and the HOF.

  • #110
    Sosa's problem is a combination of steroids and the proliferation of advanced stats.

  • #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by capnamerca View Post
    $#@! the world if Rivera isn't a first-ballot, 95% vote HOF'er. I"m on record as supporting both Hoffman and Smith for inclusion, but I understand the argument against. But River is a top-100 all-time player, at any position.
    Rivera has a chance to be the first unanimous pick. He's on the ballot the first year that all votes will be made public.

  • #112
    Some old prick who thinks the world revolves around him will never let a player get in unanimously.

  • #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    Thomas was maybe the most outspoken player in the game against steroids while he was playing.

    I will also never forget seeing Frank Thomas in Sarasota in spring training before he made the majors. He was literally three feet away from me and I thought, "That is the biggest baseball player I have ever seen in my life."
    Someone on here said he was the clearest example of 'roids a year or two ago. Right, the Big Hurt was a roider. Dude went 240 in high school.

  • #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnsajax View Post
    I'm really curious to see how that plays out and I agree with you. But there were 7 $#@!nuts who didn't vote for Griffey either.
    It was 3. One of which, I believe, didn't vote for anyone as some sort of FU to the system.

  • #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatronSaint View Post
    Someone on here said he was the clearest example of 'roids a year or two ago. Right, the Big Hurt was a roider. Dude went 240 in high school.
    They don't have steroids in high schools? News to me.

  • #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBT View Post
    They don't have steroids in high schools? News to me.

  • #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biff Tannen View Post
    It was 3. One of which, I believe, didn't vote for anyone as some sort of FU to the system.
    You're right. Not sure where I got 7.

  • #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhatAtUT View Post
    lot of people make the argument that bonds and clemens were HOF caliber players prior to their PED usage, whereas sosa was not. sosa also had only the one elite tool. but, 600 is a lot of $#@!ing homeruns.
    just to be the guy taking the other side - it could be considered worse that a major leaguer who had incredible talent and a hall-of-fame statistical trajectory would jeopardize it all by using peds. why should that guy be rewarded over someone who was on a path to be a decent to good mlb player who used to make himself great? (not talking about sosa specifically, but a lot of these guys)

    it's almost like saying rose got most of his hits before he started betting on games.

  • #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnsajax View Post
    Sosa was actually a really good hitter in his prime not just hr's. But he isn't in the same conversation as Bonds. He would be with McGwire though.

    Bonds power never amazed me as much as how he commanded the strike zone/plate as a hitter. Never seen anyone do it the way he did with the most controlled swing ever.
    Bonds is unreal. the weird thing about Bonds is he only hit over 50 once, when he hit 73. that season he was intentionally walked only 35 times. the next 3 years he was IBB'd over 200 times and still hit 45 home runs. 25% of his walks in his career were IBB. the guy could easily have another 60-70 HR's if he had been pitched to normally.

    most of the guys taking steroids were very good players who became HOF number players. Bonds was a HOF player who took steroids and basically became the baseball version of a cyborg. he basically decided to have one mission to break the single season and career HR record and did it. He hit .370 and .362 while hitting 45 HR's. those are Babe Ruth type numbers in an era of pitching specialization like we have never seen.

    almost half of all his hits were for extra bases, I couldn't find a ranking for that stat but it would be interesting to see one.

    anyway, its a damn shame he did what he did.

    I wish Ken Griffey Jr had been able to stay healthy it would have been nice for him to be the guy to pass Aaron. Its the one reason why I don't want Bonds/Clemens/Rodriguez in the hall. they made their choice and guys like Ken Griffey Jr should be truly celebrated like Williams, Mantle, Mays. Griffey is the best all around player of my lifetime.
    Last edited by dcar00; 01-05-2017 at 01:06 AM.

  • #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post

    most of the guys taking steroids were very good players who became HOF number players.
    Not even close to being true.

  • #121
    Quote Originally Posted by WBT View Post
    Ballots were due 12/31, so why is there no announcement until 1/18?
    Good question.
    Last year, announcement was made on the 1st Wed of January

    This year it's the 3rd Wed.

    More airplay? (No college football, only the NFL championship games to deal with this year pushing it back?)

  • #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    guys like Ken Griffey Jr should be truly celebrated like Williams, Mantle, Mays. Griffey is the best all around player of my lifetime.
    1234

  • #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeaTexasFight View Post
    Good question.
    Last year, announcement was made on the 1st Wed of January

    This year it's the 3rd Wed.

    More airplay? (No college football, only the NFL championship games to deal with this year pushing it back?)
    I think last year they were due before christmas. Some chode monkeys in the media I guess still like to mail in their ballots?

  • #124
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    Schoenfield:

    Four teams are still not represented in Cooperstown -- at least not by the caps worn on players' Hall of Fame plaques. Three of those are expansion teams from the 1990s: the Rockies, Marlins and Rays. The fourth is the Angels, born in 1961. Nolan Ryan spent eight years with the Angels and nine with the Astros, but he wears a Rangers cap on his plaque, which leaves the Angels without a Hall of Famer. The franchise will likely have to wait for Mike Trout, assuming Vladimir Guerrero eventually goes in with an Expos cap.

    That brings up a fun idea: Who is the next Hall of Famer for each team? This requires some speculation not only on who gets elected -- and what active players' final stats will be -- but also in predicting the cap. Let’s take a guess. (Note: When I mention public ballots, I’m referring to voters who have revealed their ballots, tracked here by Ryan Thibodaux.)
    Full list, obviously Bagwell & Pudge for the Texas teams.


    Funny about LAA.

  • #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by spystud13 View Post
    Downvote.

    Arizona Diamondbacks: Robbie Ray (2043). He didn’t seem like a future Hall of Famer when he was 14-31 after three seasons in the big leagues, but those 218 strikeouts in 174.1 innings in 2016 were the sign that he was about to break out. He finishes with 254 career wins, a Cy Young Award and three NL strikeout titles.

  • #126
    I thought Wade Boggs went in as a Ray.

  • #127
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    2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by PatronSaint View Post
    I thought Wade Boggs went in as a Ray.
    it's the NEXT hall of famer for each team. but boggs wears a bosox cap on his plaque.
    Last edited by PhatAtUT; 01-05-2017 at 09:00 PM.

  • #128
    It was in reply to spy's quote saying the Rays are unrepresented, in reference to the embarrassing rumors that he sold his plaque to the Rays.

  • #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    Thomas was maybe the most outspoken player in the game against steroids while he was playing.

    "
    I think this was considered - and rightfully so.

  • #130
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    Murray Chass, who's probably the most idiotic dinosaur of all the idiotic dinosaurs who still have HoF voting privileges, outdid himself this year -- he submitted a blank ballot:
    Thibodaux added a bonus for his Twitter followers. He conducted a one-day poll on what his followers thought I would do with my ballot.
    “As you must know, your ballots over recent years have looked very different from the average ballot. Because of that, people who care about and follow Hall of Fame happenings as I do (far more intensely than I should, I know), do indeed care about what choices you might make when voting season rolls around.
    “You only voted for Griffey last year. There are no clear, first ballot Griffey-types this year. That leaves open the very real question of whether you might submit a blank ballot. Should anyone care? Perhaps not. But some of us do.”
    To Thibodaux’s credit, he was very respectful with his questions and comments, unlike some others I hear from. However, I did not disclose my ballot to him, telling him I might in this column. I also told him:
    “As for my HOF voting, in my first year as a voter, I voted for 10 players.” [That was and is the maximum, which some voters want the Hall to raise; why I don’t understand.] “By the time of my second vote, I realized that by voting for 10, I was saying I wanted to see 10 elected. What a horrible thought, to make people sit through 10 speeches in the hot July Cooperstown sun. I also realized that by having 10 players inducted on the same day lessened the honor for each. From then on I voted for only the players I considered the best of the elite.”
    How did Thibodaux’s poll turn out? These were the results from the 792 Tweeters (I myself don’t tweet, which means I can’t communicate with them or the incoming president):
    Blank Ballot: 49%
    1-Player Ballot: 23%
    2-Player Ballot: 19%
    >2-Player Ballot: 9%
    For what I believe is the first time in my Hall of Fame voting history, I voted for no one, sending in an unmarked ballot, with a note saying, “This ballot is intentionally blank.”

  • #131
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  • #132
    Quote Originally Posted by PatronSaint View Post
    Someone on here said he was the clearest example of 'roids a year or two ago. Right, the Big Hurt was a roider. Dude went 240 in high school.
    I don't know about you, but my early 90s high school had plenty of people on steroids.

  • #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    Murray Chass, who's probably the most idiotic dinosaur of all the idiotic dinosaurs who still have HoF voting privileges, outdid himself this year -- he submitted a blank ballot:
    This is wonderful. "A long time ago, I realized that by voting for 10, I was saying I wanted to see 10 elected [which has literally never even come close to happening]. I also realized that by having 10 players inducted on the same day, [a statistical impossibility which, again, we have never in 80 years we've even come within a mile of] I risk lessening the honor for each. From then on I [continue to ignore not just the mathematics of voting, that even if I didn't understand, the effect would be repeatedly demonstrated by the results of that voting process in which 2 people or so get elected every year in order to protect against a harebrained danger on a 1-in-a-million scale likelihood]."

  • #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Sack View Post
    I don't know about you, but my early 90s high school had plenty of people on steroids.
    Can we stop this? I don't even know what people are arguing. The fact that this person has been a giant since he was a child should be enough. The dude had a completely natural career trajectory and longevity, has never been named in anything, was the one player to voluntarily speak with Mitchell, and spent the mid-90s pleading for steroid testing to begin.

    If your point truly is "high schoolers can be roiders too," great. I wish everyone could follow a conversation long enough to know that we are talking about Frank Thomas instead of high schoolers at large, but that seems to not be the case.

  • #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatronSaint View Post
    Can we stop this? I don't even know what people are arguing. The fact that this person has been a giant since he was a child should be enough. The dude had a completely natural career trajectory and longevity, has never been named in anything, was the one player to voluntarily speak with Mitchell, and spent the mid-90s pleading for steroid testing to begin.

    If your point truly is "high schoolers can be roiders too," great. I wish everyone could follow a conversation long enough to know that we are talking about Frank Thomas instead of high schoolers at large, but that seems to not be the case.
    Rafael Palmiero spoke out against steroids in his congressional testimony.

    The point is not to absolve some of guilt and go on witch hunts after others, in both cases based on the flimsiest of evidence.

  • #136
    asshat shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax's Avatar
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    For those who like MLB radio Murray Chass will be on with Casey Stern at 3pm eastern. Chass is one of the most worthless writers and hof voters around. Voted for 1 person last year and 0 this year and likes to make a statement about not voting.

    Also Casey hates him so it should/hopefully be very entertaining.

  • #137
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnsajax View Post
    For those who like MLB radio Murray Chass will be on with Casey Stern at 3pm eastern. Chass is one of the most worthless writers and hof voters around. Voted for 1 person last year and 0 this year and likes to make a statement about not voting.

    Also Casey hates him so it should/hopefully be very entertaining.
    I'd like him to ask this douche about Vladimir Guerrero. In any era, other than the steroid era, that guy has obvious HOF numbers. never a hint of using steroids from what I understand. And he was a reasonably good position player as well.

  • #138
    asshat shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? shnsajax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    I'd like him to ask this douche about Vladimir Guerrero. In any era, other than the steroid era, that guy has obvious HOF numbers. never a hint of using steroids from what I understand. And he was a reasonably good position player as well.
    He basically said that he thought Bagwell was on steroids with no evidence so didn't vote for him.

  • #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnsajax View Post
    He basically said that he thought Bagwell was on steroids with no evidence so didn't vote for him.
    I love bagwell. He should be in the hall. I'd be surprised if he didn't at least dabble in roids.

  • #140
    Quote Originally Posted by shnsajax View Post
    He basically said that he thought Bagwell was on steroids with no evidence so didn't vote for him.
    I think Murray Chass is a senile old buffoon who only submits these ballots in order to get national attention.

    However, if a voter is going to make a big deal out of steroids, I think I would prefer that they submit a completely blank ballot rather than try and guess who did and didn't juice... $#@!in' Jon Heyman.

  • #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulaw Horn View Post
    I love bagwell. He should be in the hall. I'd be surprised if he didn't at least dabble in roids.
    Some people in baseball circles that I trust in Houston have told me that Bagwell was 100% juicing.

  • #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by capnamerca View Post
    Some people in baseball circles that I trust in Houston have told me that Bagwell was 100% juicing.
    Hell it wasn't even tested for the vast majority of his time in the bigs. Why wouldn't he or anyone else for that matter, under those conditions?

  • #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulaw Horn View Post
    Hell it wasn't even tested for the vast majority of his time in the bigs. Why wouldn't he or anyone else for that matter, under those conditions?
    Yep, agree.

  • #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulaw Horn View Post
    Hell it wasn't even tested for the vast majority of his time in the bigs. Why wouldn't he or anyone else for that matter, under those conditions?
    Because it was against the rules and had been at least since 1993.

  • #145
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Sack View Post
    Because it was against the rules and had been at least since 1993.
    It wasn't "against the rules" of MLB -- it was a violation of US law.

    Any player who wanted to spend the offseason in Mexico or the Dominican roiding up wasn't breaking any rules.

    Likewise, possession of steroids in Canada is still legal, so if you played for the Blue Jays or Expos in the 90s, you were free to take all the steroids you wanted at home.

  • #146
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckie Finster View Post
    I think Murray Chass is a senile old buffoon who only submits these ballots in order to get national attention.

    However, if a voter is going to make a big deal out of steroids, I think I would prefer that they submit a completely blank ballot rather than try and guess who did and didn't juice... $#@!in' Jon Heyman.
    I just looked at Heyman's ballot -- he voted for Bonds, but not Clemens. Wut?

  • #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Sack View Post
    Because it was against the rules and had been at least since 1993.
    How many people would speed if there was literally not a cop on the rod to write a ticket?

  • #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    I just looked at Heyman's ballot -- he voted for Bonds, but not Clemens. Wut?
    He pinpoints bonds roiding to 99 and Clemens he thinks it's 92 or 93. Very scientific.

  • #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    It wasn't "against the rules" of MLB -- it was a violation of US law.

    Any player who wanted to spend the offseason in Mexico or the Dominican roiding up wasn't breaking any rules.

    Likewise, possession of steroids in Canada is still legal, so if you played for the Blue Jays or Expos in the 90s, you were free to take all the steroids you wanted at home.
    Actually, it was against MLB rules as early as 1991. I was off.

    A year earlier Congress had raised penalties for possessing those and 25 other anabolics. But now the stuff violated baseball's rules, too. On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't cover random testing -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.
    http://www.espn.com/espn/eticket/sto...steroids&num=3

  • #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulaw Horn View Post
    He pinpoints bonds roiding to 99 and Clemens he thinks it's 92 or 93. Very scientific.
    He also used Bagwell being teammates with Caminiti as evidence that Bagwell probably juiced, but dismisses Canseco explicitly saying that Pudge used steroids as hearsay. Lunacy.

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