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Thread: 2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Sack View Post
    Actually, it was against MLB rules as early as 1991. I was off.



    http://www.espn.com/espn/eticket/sto...steroids&num=3
    The Commissioner doesn't make the rules by sending out a memo. The rules in MLB are created by collective bargaining.

    Again, the only way steroids were forbidden by the 1990s collective bargaining agreements was a clause that proscribed penalties for violating US laws.
    • If you used steroids in the US, yes, you were violating US law and you could be punished by MLB (not that anyone in MLB actually cared at the time).
    • If you used steroids in Canada/Mexico/DR, you were not violating US laws, therefore you couldn't be punished by MLB.
    • Therefore, use of steroids was not "against the rules" of MLB in the 1990s.

  • #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckie Finster View Post
    He also used Bagwell being teammates with Caminiti as evidence that Bagwell probably juiced, but dismisses Canseco explicitly saying that Pudge used steroids as hearsay. Lunacy.
    this is one of my favorite arguments. as if some teams had huge clusters of users, and other teams were squeaky clean. $#@!, i wish we were juicing and everyone else wasn't. maybe we could've beaten the braves. and the padres.

  • #153
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulaw Horn View Post
    Hell it wasn't even tested for the vast majority of his time in the bigs. Why wouldn't he or anyone else for that matter, under those conditions?
    this is the main issue. both pudge and bagwell should get in. It is a bit harder for bagwell given he played first base and that is who you compare him to vs. pudge vs. other catchers but both should get in.

    The whole thing sucks. the problem is Bonds, McGwire, ARod, Sosa,(clemens to some extent as well) and heck even Palmiero were so good already that taking steroids completely destroyed the integrity of baseball statistically.

    Baseball more than any other US sport has a big emotional attachment to statistics as a way to compare players from different era's. there seemed to always be some sort of balance once the live ball era started. hitters would get advantage of lower mound, smaller strike zone, even some pitching dilution due to expansion. pitchers would become more specialized, develop new pitches, etc.

    Steroids let the stat genie out of the bottle and it can never be put back in.

    it really sucks.

  • #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    Steroids let the stat genie out of the bottle and it can never be put back in.
    Actually Selig getting let in directly "put the genie back in the bottle" thus the rise in Clemens, Bonds, etc

  • #155
    Quote Originally Posted by PhatAtUT View Post
    Repost...
    Excellence

  • #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    The Commissioner doesn't make the rules by sending out a memo. The rules in MLB are created by collective bargaining.

    Again, the only way steroids were forbidden by the 1990s collective bargaining agreements was a clause that proscribed penalties for violating US laws.
    • If you used steroids in the US, yes, you were violating US law and you could be punished by MLB (not that anyone in MLB actually cared at the time).
    • If you used steroids in Canada/Mexico/DR, you were not violating US laws, therefore you couldn't be punished by MLB.
    • Therefore, use of steroids was not "against the rules" of MLB in the 1990s.
    Well, most MLB teams are in the USA. And steroids were illegal in the USA and the CBA prohibited use of illegal drugs.

    And the commissioner has power under the "best interests of baseball clause" to punish players for detrimental conduct even if the conduct is legal and not proscribed specifically by the CBA. Ask $#@!ing John Rocker about his suspension for giving an interview to Sports Illustrated. There was no rule about that. And his speech was certainly legal under our laws. It is what Landis used to permanently ban the Black Sox player as their conduct was not specifically prohibited at the time.

    In 1921, the owners defined the modern Office of the Commissioner, giving Landis wide-ranging power to police the game. They spelled out "the best interests of baseball" power in the Major League constitution without resorting to legalese. The "best interests of baseball" authority is exactly what it sounds like. The Commissioner has the power to take action against clubs or players if he believes they've done something that strikes at the integrity of the game or the public trust in it.
    http://m.mlb.com/news/article/55523182//

  • #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Sack View Post
    Well, most MLB teams are in the USA. And steroids were illegal in the USA and the CBA prohibited use of illegal drugs.

    And the commissioner has power under the "best interests of baseball clause" to punish players for detrimental conduct even if the conduct is legal and not proscribed specifically by the CBA. Ask $#@!ing John Rocker about his suspension for giving an interview to Sports Illustrated. There was no rule about that. And his speech was certainly legal under our laws. It is what Landis used to permanently ban the Black Sox player as their conduct was not specifically prohibited at the time.



    http://m.mlb.com/news/article/55523182//
    Absolutely none of this changes the fact that use of steroids was not against MLB rules in the 1990s.

  • #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    Absolutely none of this changes the fact that use of steroids was not against MLB rules in the 1990s.
    Wrong. They were placed on the banned substance list in 1991 by MLB. It doesn't $#@!ing matter if they were legal in Canada, DR, Mexico or outer space. You would have been punished by MLB if you got busted with them just like you would have gotten busted by MLB if you got convicted of drug possession because the cops caught you with an 8 ball. You are wrong on this.

    "The steroids era" refers to a period of time in Major League Baseball when a number of players were believed to have used performance-enhancing drugs, resulting in increased offensive output throughout the game. Unlike other MLB "eras," there is no defined start or end time to "the steroids era," though it is generally considered to have run from the late '80s through the late 2000s.

    Though steroids have been banned in MLB since 1991, the league did not implement leaguewide PED testing until 2003.
    http://www.espn.com/mlb/topics/_/page/the-steroids-era

    Steroids finally made it to baseball’s banned substance list in 1991, however testing for major league players did not begin until the 2003 season
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_baseball


    Steroids didn’t make it to baseball’s banned substance list until 1991, and testing for major league players did not begin until the 2003 season, but the MLB has clearly decided that steroid use will no longer be tolerated.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deni-c...b_3887380.html

    Steroids finally made it to baseballís banned substance list in 1991, however testing for major league players did not begin until the 2003 season.
    http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...20baseball.pdf

    The Fay Vincent memo wasn't him just making $#@! up. He wasn't making a new rule. Steroids had just been banned by Congress. He sent the memo out to remind mother $#@!ers that change meant that steroids were now included on the banned substance list.

    In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear in a memo that this was very much relevant to baseball.

    The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game…

    This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...e-game-of-peds

    There was no out in the policy that said $#@! it, if the country your in at the time does not have a law against steroids, you can take them.

    At the time the term "illegal drug" was defined as drugs that were illegal in the USA.
    Last edited by Johnny Sack; 01-11-2017 at 05:21 PM.

  • #159
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    Well $#@!, you're right. I thought additions to that list were collectively bargained.

    Repped.

  • #160
    Pretty sure bagwell juiced pretty hard. But so was most everyone else.

  • #161
    Diverting from the played out steroids discussion...an article on the played out voting discussion...

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/cooperst...lot-1484222801
    Baseball’s corner of the internet is not happy with Randy Miller, a veteran journalist who has covered more than 2,000 games. The reason: He doesn’t think that Tim Raines merits induction into the sport’s Hall of Fame.

    Miller, now a New York Yankees beat writer for NJ Advance Media, is one of the more than 400 baseball writers eligible to vote on candidates for the Hall, and counts himself part of a growing movement that favors increased transparency in the annual election. So even though this year’s results won’t be released until next Wednesday, he unveiled his ballot online last week, contributing to an informal and public exit poll that offers an early glimpse at who will comprise the Hall’s Class of 2017.

    The absence of a vote for Raines, one of this year’s favorites for induction, brought a furious response. One person on Twitter called it “downright nauseating.” Another wondered if Miller had “ever seen a baseball game in his life.” A third wrote that picking closers Trevor Hoffman and Billy Wagner over Raines “should be punishable by death.”

    “We should be held accountable,” Miller said. “How do you not vote for Ken Griffey, Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver? There are people who didn’t vote for them. They should have their name on it.”

    The increasingly public nature of the Hall of Fame vote is in large part thanks to Ryan Thibodaux, a 35-year-old Athletics fan in Oakland who has inadvertently changed the Hall voting process. For the past four years, Thibodaux has run the Hall of Fame Tracker, a color-coded spreadsheet that compiles every public ballot in real time.

    That has transformed a once-simple announcement into a two-month season of fierce campaigning, wonky statistical analysis and furious social-media mudslinging, all as the results come slowly into focus. Already, nearly 45% of the ballots have been made public; in 2014, only a third of voters revealed their ballots before the announcement.

    Thibodaux’s efforts and increased participation efforts by the eligible voters from the Baseball Writers’ Association of America indicate that Raines and former Houston Astros first baseman Jeff Bagwell are very likely headed to Cooperstown. Hoffman, catcher Ivan Rodriguez and outfielder Vladimir Guerrero remain in the running.

    But while Thibodaux’s exit poll has certainly livened the conversation, it has also raised questions about the integrity of the vote.

    “Identifying how each person voted is actually in violation of principles of democratic elections,” said Jon Krosnick, a professor of communication, psychology and political science at Stanford University.

    It seems clear that a shift toward open balloting is the way of the future. In December, the BBWAA voted by an overwhelming margin to mandate that all ballots be revealed after the results announcement starting in 2018. No longer, for example, would the three writers who didn’t vote for Griffey last year hide behind their anonymity.

    But the real-time vote could be contorting the result. Currently, voters can release their ballots at any point—even before everybody has submitted their votes. This year, more than a third of the voting had already been revealed on the day ballots were due.

    Voters can now watch Thibodaux’s spreadsheet, evaluate the reactions to certain ballots and then make their choices.

    Costas Panagopoulos, a political science professor at Fordham University, said voters could fall victim to social desirability bias, which says that survey respondents tend to make selections that will be viewed favorably by others. That’s one reason why Panagopoulos says that “secret balloting might be advantageous.”

    “If what we’re trying to do is elicit from people their true preferences, the only way to get at that is by excluding any external influences,” he said.

    These aren’t just theoretical concerns. While so-called “strategic voting” isn’t a new concept, the rise of early results data has made it easier for people to partake in it.

    Two years ago, a writer, Mike Berardino of the St. Paul Pioneer Press, waited until the final days of balloting before voting to ensure that Martinez and Randy Johnson would receive enough support. He explained in a blog post that, after seeing Martinez and Johnson would almost certainly be elected in, he declined to vote for them, choosing instead to use two of his allotted spots on more unheralded players.

    Other voters have said they have used the data before casting a vote for a minor candidate, not wanting that player to receive less than the required 5% to stay on the ballot.

    “It’s a useful heuristic for voters. It’s an information shortcut that enables them to make speedy decisions,” Panagopoulos said of Thibodaux’s data. “The basic point is, are people going to use the information? Yes.”

    Jeff Bagwell of the Houston Astros is expected to be inducted based on early voting results.
    Jeff Bagwell of the Houston Astros is expected to be inducted based on early voting results. PHOTO: GETTY IMAGES
    Social media plays a significant role in this: On the one hand, Krosnick said, attention-seeking voters could intentionally submit an unorthodox ballot to attract visibility. On the other hand, others might vote against their beliefs to avoid attacks.

    Jack O’Connell, the BBWAA’s secretary/treasurer, says he knows of at least two writers who have stopped voting because of social-media outrage hurtled in their direction.

    “I find it disturbing,” O’Connell said. “We want the writers to vote their conscience and not vote on, ‘Well, everybody thinks so-and-so belongs. I’m not so sure, but I don’t want to get criticized, so I better vote for him.’”

    Thibodaux says he doesn’t post the Twitter handle of voters when revealing a ballot because “the responses are so vitriolic all the time” and tries not to inject his own feelings into the discussion. Ultimately, he doesn’t believe “there are very many voters who let the prospect of being yelled at on Twitter influence them.”

    Raines, on the ballot for the 10th and final time, has already received a vote from at least 25 people who didn’t vote for him last year. Thibodaux attributes the flip not to conformity or social-media pressure, but to a larger embrace of analytics over traditional stats that highlight Raines’s greatness over 23 seasons with the Montreal Expos, Chicago White Sox and others.

    Jeff Idelson, the president of the Hall of Fame, said he is confident that voters take their responsibility seriously, and the early ballot counting only “extends and expands the conversation” rather than sway the outcome.

    It also keeps the Hall of Fame in the news throughout the winter.

    “To be dominating the sports pages in December and January speaks to the passion of Hall of Fame voting,” Idelson said. “You hope that stays as a passion and doesn’t become something else.”

  • #162
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    The voting being public is because of the stupidity of these writers leaving guys like Griffey Jr off ballots completely.

    I think Raines getting more votes this year is also about giving benefit to the guys who played mostly before the steroids Era. I think Rice was a similar situation.

  • #163
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    2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

    It's the baseball hall of fame, not the presidential election. If voters want to gauge public opinion, they can. I mean, if most of the country that cares enough about baseball to seek out voters and their votes thinks a guy should be in, he probably should be in.

    Are those professors quotes also against any public polling for elections? Those can elicit biases in vote choice and voter turnout.
    Last edited by Duck of Death; 01-14-2017 at 08:33 PM.

  • #164
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    Kind of blows my mind that Sheffield is getting so few votes. I assume it's at least partly because of the ballot crunch.

    To me, Sheffield had a better career than Jim Rice.

    Here are his B-R comps:
    1. Chipper Jones (892)
    2. Mel Ott (877) *
    3. Reggie Jackson (864) *
    4. Ken Griffey (851) *
    5. Fred McGriff (850)
    6. Mickey Mantle (840) *
    7. Billy Williams (837) *
    8. Frank Robinson (836) *
    9. Frank Thomas (832) *
    10. Al Kaline (830) *
    Wow.

  • #165
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    He admitted to using steroids although claimed he didn't know it. Either way he is associated with BALCO so that's certainly a huge part of not getting votes.

  • #166
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    Rob Gillies

    @rgilliescanada

    Chief of Bureau for The Associated Press in Canada. Baseball Hall of Fame voter. Canadian.

  • #167
    My favorite part of Gillies ballot is that he posted it like he was proud of it.

    That ballot is crap and should be grounds for losing your vote.



  • #168
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    2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

    I'm wondering if that guy doesn't know that rock Raines played for Montreal for 12 years, or he just thinks Larry walker was better. Maybe walker gets bonus points for actually being Canadian. Raines' number is retired by the franchise, all of his all star appearances (7) were as an expo, he won a batting title and silver slugger as an expo, and all 4 of his league sb titles were as an expo.
    Last edited by Duck of Death; 01-16-2017 at 09:20 PM.

  • #169
    With 51.5% of ballots known, it's looking like Bagwell (88.4%) and Raines (89.7%) may be the only ones to make it this year.

    Pudge (78.5%) is right on the borderline but may fall just shy when the rest of the ballots are revealed. Hoffman and Vlad (both 72.3%) will probably end up ~5% short as well.

  • #170

  • #171
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Field View Post
    With 51.5% of ballots known, it's looking like Bagwell (88.4%) and Raines (89.7%) may be the only ones to make it this year.

    Pudge (78.5%) is right on the borderline but may fall just shy when the rest of the ballots are revealed. Hoffman and Vlad (both 72.3%) will probably end up ~5% short as well.
    criminal if Vald doesn't get in but he's a first ballot guy(stupid). will bagwell and pudge be the first ones with some rumor/stink of steroids? or did Piazza take that off the table.

  • #172
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    What time tomorrow do they announce?

  • #173
    asshat jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34's Avatar
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    Announcement is at 5pm central. Live on mlb network.
    Some of these ballots are a joke. Voters need to be purged again

  • #174
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    burn on, big river.

  • #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Field View Post
    With 51.5% of ballots known, it's looking like Bagwell (88.4%) and Raines (89.7%) may be the only ones to make it this year.

    Pudge (78.5%) is right on the borderline but may fall just shy when the rest of the ballots are revealed. Hoffman and Vlad (both 72.3%) will probably end up ~5% short as well.
    That was my prediction. Neither Pudge and vlad seemed like first ballot guys to me, and Hoffman being a RP is always an interesting journey. I bet all three of those guys get in next year.

    Also, Edgar Martinez doing work. I thought he (like Bagwell) would be left out of the HOF a few years ago. Now, he looks likely to get in sometime. I really like the younger wave of voters and the pruning of the olds.

  • #176
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    criminal if Vald doesn't get in but he's a first ballot guy(stupid). will bagwell and pudge be the first ones with some rumor/stink of steroids? or did Piazza take that off the table.
    Piazza for sure.

  • #177
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    If I had a ballot, in order...

    1. Raines, because this is his last year.
    2. Bonds
    3. Clemens
    4. Pudge
    5. Bagwell
    6. Schilling
    7. Edgar
    8. Vlad
    Those guys would definitely be on my ballot.
    Here's where I start getting waffly, so I'd probably leave them off.
    9. Sheffield
    10. Walker
    11. Mussina
    12. McGriff
    13. Wagner
    14. Hoffman
    15. Kent
    16. Posada

    And there's no way I'd consider voting for Manny this year. Testing positive after everyone agreed to test is waaaaaaaaaaaay worse than using when there was no testing.


    Other than Manny, the other guys can drop off the ballot.

  • #178
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulaw Horn View Post
    That was my prediction. Neither Pudge and vlad seemed like first ballot guys to me, and Hoffman being a RP is always an interesting journey. I bet all three of those guys get in next year.

    Also, Edgar Martinez doing work. I thought he (like Bagwell) would be left out of the HOF a few years ago. Now, he looks likely to get in sometime. I really like the younger wave of voters and the pruning of the olds.
    without the steroids rumor Pudge is a first ballot catcher, no doubt. He was the best combination of hitting and defense as a catcher in baseball for close to 12 years. he hit .296 with 300 HR's for his career.

  • #179
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    If I had a ballot, in order...

    1. Raines, because this is his last year.
    2. Bonds
    3. Clemens
    4. Pudge
    5. Bagwell
    6. Schilling
    7. Edgar
    8. Vlad
    Those guys would definitely be on my ballot.
    Here's where I start getting waffly, so I'd probably leave them off.
    9. Sheffield
    10. Walker
    11. Mussina
    12. McGriff
    13. Wagner
    14. Hoffman
    15. Kent
    16. Posada

    And there's no way I'd consider voting for Manny this year. Testing positive after everyone agreed to test is waaaaaaaaaaaay worse than using when there was no testing.


    Other than Manny, the other guys can drop off the ballot.
    good list. Mike Mussina is not getting enough love. 270 wins and 153 losses? yeah his ERA is a bit high but $#@! that type of record should get you in. he shouldn't be punished for pitching in the AL at the same time as Clemens, Martinez, and Johnson. he needs to be in. Clemens, Johnson and Martinez are the only guys who pitched at least 18 seasons with a higher winning percentage.

  • #180
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    In case you're not aware, Grant Brisbee is a national treasure.

    He goes through the other guys on the ballot: http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/1/1...-tim-wakefield

    I think he nails the demographic part of fans who care about HOF voting.

    And I'll mention that I have two player jerseys hanging in my closet: Goldschmidt and Tim Wakefield.

  • #181
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    good list. Mike Mussina is not getting enough love. 270 wins and 153 losses? yeah his ERA is a bit high but $#@! that type of record should get you in. he shouldn't be punished for pitching in the AL at the same time as Clemens, Martinez, and Johnson. he needs to be in. Clemens, Johnson and Martinez are the only guys who pitched at least 18 seasons with a higher winning percentage.
    I didn't look at the poster at first and assumed this was from Helobius. Congrats.

  • #182
    asshat dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? dcar00 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    I didn't look at the poster at first and assumed this was from Helobius. Congrats.
    ha. didn't know who you were talking about but see he is a Yankee lover. I'm certainly not that...

  • #183
    Seleccion Suprema No. 1 Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo Shaggy Gold Club Macanudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    If I had a ballot, in order...

    1. Raines, because this is his last year.
    2. Bonds
    3. Clemens
    4. Pudge
    5. Bagwell
    6. Schilling
    7. Edgar
    8. Vlad
    Those guys would definitely be on my ballot.
    Here's where I start getting waffly, so I'd probably leave them off.
    9. Sheffield
    10. Walker
    11. Mussina
    12. McGriff
    13. Wagner
    14. Hoffman
    15. Kent
    16. Posada

    And there's no way I'd consider voting for Manny this year. Testing positive after everyone agreed to test is waaaaaaaaaaaay worse than using when there was no testing.


    Other than Manny, the other guys can drop off the ballot.
    Honest question... Why do you have Hoffman so low?

  • #184
    Does it make me a bad person that I hope someone misses out by one vote? (As long as it's not Bagwell)

  • #185
    asshat spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class spystud13 Probably Shaggy upper class
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    Pudge is projected to miss by about 3, so could happen.

  • #186
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macanudo View Post
    Honest question... Why do you have Hoffman so low?
    Closer bias.

  • #187
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    ha. didn't know who you were talking about but see he is a Yankee lover. I'm certainly not that...
    You two do have something in common, though.

  • #188
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar00 View Post
    without the steroids rumor Pudge is a first ballot catcher, no doubt. He was the best combination of hitting and defense as a catcher in baseball for close to 12 years. he hit .296 with 300 HR's for his career.
    But those steroid rumpors exist and are factored in.

  • #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    In case you're not aware, Grant Brisbee is a national treasure.

    He goes through the other guys on the ballot: http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/1/1...-tim-wakefield

    I think he nails the demographic part of fans who care about HOF voting.

    And I'll mention that I have two player jerseys hanging in my closet: Goldschmidt and Tim Wakefield.
    Thanks for the link.
    I laughed... especially at the Matt Stairs part

  • #190
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Two more guys voted for Bonds but not Clemens. This guy had a great reason:

    Here is who Bay Area News Group A’s beat writer John Hickey voted for on his ballot:
    Barry Bonds
    Trevor Hoffman
    Jeff Kent
    Edgar Martinez
    Tim Raines
    Ivan Rodriguez
    Lee Smith
    Billy Wagner

    HICKEY’S BALLOT NOTES:
    Considered Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling.
    Clemens is on somewhat shaky ground over steroids, but it’s not a deal breaker. He lost me by throwing that shattered bat at Mike Piazza. Was he trying to hurt him? I can’t read his mind. Good pitcher, not a good guy.
    And this guy: https://twitter.com/alanrobinson412/...29896804573185 voted for Bonds, Pudge, Raines, and McGriff. That's it.

  • #191
    one time dealer CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT Shaggy Silver Club CBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    If I had a ballot, in order...

    1. Raines, because this is his last year.
    2. Bonds
    3. Clemens
    4. Pudge
    5. Bagwell
    6. Schilling
    7. Edgar
    8. Vlad
    Those guys would definitely be on my ballot.
    Here's where I start getting waffly, so I'd probably leave them off.
    9. Sheffield
    10. Walker
    11. Mussina
    12. McGriff
    13. Wagner
    14. Hoffman
    15. Kent
    16. Posada

    And there's no way I'd consider voting for Manny this year. Testing positive after everyone agreed to test is waaaaaaaaaaaay worse than using when there was no testing.


    Other than Manny, the other guys can drop off the ballot.

    aaaaaall of this.

  • #192
    asshat jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34's Avatar
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    Some of these ballots are horrible. To much local homers and no logic behind votes.

  • #193
    asshat jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34 might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? jshep34's Avatar
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    $#@!ing a!!!!!!!!

  • #194
    Bagwell and Pudge. YES!

  • #195
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentJay View Post
    Bagwell and Pudge. YES!
    Uh, Raines, too.

    Hoffman was 5 votes short.


  • #196
    asshat Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey Probably Shaggy upper class Jive Turkey's Avatar
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    Whoooo hoooo! Pudge deserved to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. And Bagwell needs to be there. So does Tim Raines.

    Congrats to all three.

  • #197
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    Pudge made it by 4 votes.

  • #198
    asshat Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine Definitely Shaggy upper class Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Bonds was +3 on Clemens on the revealed ballots.
    Clemens went +4 on Bonds in the unrevealed ballots.
    Both gained about 9% from last year.
    Hoffman gained 7%.
    Edgar gained about 15%.
    Mussina gained 9%.
    Schilling lost 7%.
    McGriff gained less than 1%.
    Sosa and Sheffield both gained 2%
    Posada drops off the ballot.
    Last edited by Beau Vine; 01-18-2017 at 06:13 PM.

  • #199
    Shah of Shaggy Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan Shaggy Gold Club Iconoclast Texan's Avatar
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    Awesome to see my man Jeff Bagwell, my favorite player growing up making it to the Hall. His 94 MVP season was off the charts. We were robbed of seeing incredible Astros and Expos squads go at it in the NLCS that year because of that stupid players' strike. How the hell Trevor Hoffman not make the Hall. He was the best closer in baseball for more than a decade.
    Last edited by Iconoclast Texan; 01-18-2017 at 06:19 PM.

  • #200
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    Big jump for Edgar. Interesting.

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