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Thread: 2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

  1. #1
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    2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

    This site tracks all public ballots:

    https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...E2Lu5P1f92OW8o

    Only 5 ballots so far, so it would be pointless to conclude anything, except that maybe Curt Schilling is in trouble.

  • #2
    George Willis flipped four votes from his ballot last year? That seems odd. I'm curious why his opinion changed on Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Hoffman, Martinez, Mussina, Schilling, and Smith.

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    yeah he looks like one of those dipshits who need their vote revoked.

    But glad he voted for Bagwell lol

  • #4
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    Earl Bloom voted for Manny, but not for Clemens or Bonds.


  • #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    Earl Bloom voted for Manny, but not for Clemens or Bonds.
    Tony Massarotti voted for Bonds, Clemens, and Ramirez, but didn't vote for Bagwell because steroids. I don't even know what to say to that kind of intellectual bankruptcy.

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    I'm not sure I still want Bagwell to go in this year now that there putting Selig in. What a joke

  • #7
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    is it too early for Rougned Odor to get votes?

  • #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMAAA View Post
    is it too early for Rougned Odor to get votes?
    Which Rougned Odor are you talking about? I'm sure one of them will get 12 votes.

  • #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wherzwaldo View Post
    Tony Massarotti voted for Bonds, Clemens, and Ramirez, but didn't vote for Bagwell because steroids. I don't even know what to say to that kind of intellectual bankruptcy.
    Steve Politi voted for Jorge Posada but not Manny or Vlad?

  • #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by wherzwaldo View Post
    Tony Massarotti voted for Bonds, Clemens, and Ramirez, but didn't vote for Bagwell because steroids. I don't even know what to say to that kind of intellectual bankruptcy.
    There are now 3 guys (out of 18 public ballots) who voted for Bonds and Clemens, but not Bagwell. And all of these 3 ballots voted for less than 10.

    That's pretty inexplicable.

  • #11
    Is that the full list of noms for this year?

    IMO:

    Will get in:
    Hoffman
    Pudge

    Should get in, IMO:
    Bagwell (not sure if he will or not, right on the tipping point)
    E. Martinez (but probably won't)
    Manny (but probably won't)
    Schilling
    Lee Smith

    Never in a million years would I vote for them:
    Pete Rose (lol)
    Bonds
    Clemens (he and Bonds would be IN votes for me if they'd just have come clean 10 years ago)

  • #12
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    vlad is a no doubt 1 ballot hall of famer in my mind. not sure what he did to you capn, but give the guy a chance.

  • #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NOMAAA View Post
    vlad is a no doubt 1 ballot hall of famer in my mind. not sure what he did to you capn, but give the guy a chance.
    I'm on the fence on vlad. His high's were very high, but did he play D at an elite level as well? (that's an honest question, because I haven't dug in). For the above list, if pushed, I'd have him in the "first round out" alongside Sheffield and Wagner. Exceptional players, but not HOF players.

  • #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    There are now 3 guys (out of 18 public ballots) who voted for Bonds and Clemens, but not Bagwell. And all of these 3 ballots voted for less than 10.

    That's pretty inexplicable.
    Maybe because he believes Bagwell's whole career and HOF claim is based on him juicing? Same as Sosa and McGwire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by capnamerca View Post
    I'm on the fence on vlad. His high's were very high, but did he play D at an elite level as well? (that's an honest question, because I haven't dug in). For the above list, if pushed, I'd have him in the "first round out" alongside Sheffield and Wagner. Exceptional players, but not HOF players.
    maybe youre right. im biased because i am pretty sure he batted somewhere close to .800 against the rangers in his time with the angels. i liked vlad.

  • #16
    Quote Originally Posted by NOMAAA View Post
    maybe youre right. im biased because i am pretty sure he batted somewhere close to .800 against the rangers in his time with the angels. i liked vlad.
    I've never seen another player hit a ball out of the park on a pitched that bounced. He was a freak, there's no doubt.

  • #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMAAA View Post
    maybe youre right. im biased because i am pretty sure he batted somewhere close to .800 against the rangers in his time with the angels. i liked vlad.
    Vlad hit +.300 for 13 of the 15 seasons he played. He hit .295 and .290 in the other two. Averaged over 100 RBI's and 30+ HR's per season.

    If he's not a first timer, I'm not sure who is.

  • #18
    Not a holy war sort of thing, I won't object if he does get in, but Baseball Reference supports the "exceptional, but not HOF" label.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...uerrvl01.shtml. The HOF comparisons are towards the middle-bottom of the page, and he's below the "average HOF" values in 5 of the 6, include WAR/7-year-peakWAR.

    edit - I think I might have been mis-reading the stats on the summary view. I clicked over to the detailed lists view, and vlad is top-100 all time the Grey-Ink (top ten categories) and Career Standards tests, which is easily first-ballot HOF. I"m sold, move him up into "Should be In" list, just because I have no idea how many voters are as un-informed as I was.
    Last edited by capnamerca; 12-06-2016 at 12:34 PM.

  • #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Horn View Post
    Maybe because he believes Bagwell's whole career and HOF claim is based on him juicing? Same as Sosa and McGwire.
    On what would he base that belief?

  • #20
    The fact that Pete Rose isn't in is a $#@!ing joke. 17 all star appearances at 5 different positions, 3 world series titles, 2 gold gloves, an mvp and roy.

    Oh yeah and he has 4256 hits.

  • #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by capnamerca View Post
    I'm on the fence on vlad. His high's were very high, but did he play D at an elite level as well? (that's an honest question, because I haven't dug in). For the above list, if pushed, I'd have him in the "first round out" alongside Sheffield and Wagner. Exceptional players, but not HOF players.
    Vlad was not good defensively, his great arm notwithstanding.

    I do think he's a Hall of Famer, though. Not first ballot (whatever that stupid criteria means), but he should get in.



  • #22
    Quote Originally Posted by hookem98 View Post
    The fact that Pete Rose isn't in is a $#@!ing joke. 17 all star appearances at 5 different positions, 3 world series titles, 2 gold gloves, an mvp and roy.

    Oh yeah and he has 4256 hits.
    Because there's one rule that's been on the books for MLB for literally forever ... and that $#@!er broke it, and then never owned it. $#@! him.

  • #23
    But roids are ok. Cool.

  • #24
    Quote Originally Posted by hookem98 View Post
    But roids are ok. Cool.
    Didn't say that ... but there is a difference in the arguments. The PED rules when guys like Bonds and Clemens were at their peak were fuzzy at best, and completely missing at worst. I don't like it because it goes directly against the spirit of fair play, but ... there's an argument here that taking 'roids is trying to improve your performance, and just helping you compete at a higher level. You, your team, and your organization all benefit, even if those gains are ill-gotten. Rose bet against his own $#@!ing team, and there is NO argument for how that could benefit the club. (again, let's be clear - I'm not giving a pass on the 'roids, just acknowleding that there are at least some arguments for those players, whereas Rose broke the clearest rule in the rulebook. It's as black-and-white of an issue as their could ever be).

  • #25
    Quote Originally Posted by WBT View Post
    On what would he base that belief?
    His claim to the HOF rests on his power numbers. He hit like the lesbian softball player he looks like now when he was in the minors. Then magically bulked up and the rest is history.

  • #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Horn View Post
    His claim to the HOF rests on his power numbers. He hit like the lesbian softball player he looks like now when he was in the minors. Then magically bulked up and the rest is history.
    Every sentence of this post is wrong. That's impressive.

  • #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Horn View Post
    Maybe because he believes Bagwell's whole career and HOF claim is based on him juicing? Same as Sosa and McGwire.
    Two of the three also voted for Sosa!

  • #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hookem98 View Post
    The fact that Pete Rose isn't in is a $#@!ing joke. 17 all star appearances at 5 different positions, 3 world series titles, 2 gold gloves, an mvp and roy.

    Oh yeah and he has 4256 hits.
    Please $#@! off.

    Thanks.

  • #29
    asshat wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Horn View Post
    His claim to the HOF rests on his power numbers.
    Bagwell was a first baseman; of course he needs power numbers to get into the HOF. But his power numbers only get him into the conversation. If/when Bagwell is inducted it will be because he was a five-tool player for most of his career, an extraordinary quality among first baseman. He is 20th all-time in stolen bases among first basemen (would be 8th among HOF first basemen if inducted); literally ALL of the first basemen ahead of him (not just HOF first basemen, but ALL first basemen) were born in the 19th century, and none of them came within 300 HRs of him. This also says nothing of Bagwell's defensive contributions which were outstanding for a long time. He was no Frank Thomas-type fat guy who mashed but played the field where he would do the least defensive damage; he had great range and an arm that could turn 3-5-3 double plays.

    He hit like the lesbian softball player he looks like now when he was in the minors. Then magically bulked up and the rest is history.
    Plenty of players find a new power stroke sometime in their development. Sure, Bagwell bulked up, but he has never been credibly linked to steroids - not by the Mitchell Report, not during the Congressional hearings, not even by less-credible guys like Canseco. He's been retired for over a decade and still nothing has come out. Did he just game the system? If so, how did he do it when other players of both higher and lower profiles didn't? Were steroid users not willing to snitch on him? If so, why? It doesn't add up.
    Last edited by wherzwaldo; 12-07-2016 at 11:13 AM.

  • #30
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    I think it's naive to suggest that Bagwell didn't use steroids. I also think it's naive to suggest that most any of the power hitters of his era didn't.

    But I actually kind of feel bad for the people who don't understand how great Bagwell was. He was one of the very few first basemen in my lifetime who was great at every part of the game -- hit for average, hit for power, played great defense, and stole bases.

    If you don't think Bagwell is Hall-worthy, you also must not think Goldschmidt or Rizzo are very good, because their prime years look like Bagwell's career average.

  • #31
    Here's how I look at the various categories of Bagwell HOF arguments:

    I thoroughly disagree with, but at least on some level understand writers who say something like the following: "I will not vote for any player from the steroids era who I suspect of having used. Ergo, no Bonds, Sosa, Bagwell, Ramirez....."

    It's idiotically inconsistent though if someone vote Bonds or Sosa but omits Bagwell based on PED suspicions.

    It's beyond moronic to argue that Bagwell is one of the "good, not great" players that's just not HOF worthy. He's a 74 WAR player whose career was that of one of the best 1B in National League history. There is no credible non-PED argument against him. None. Whatsoever.


  • #32
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    It incenses me that Frank Thomas sailed right in and Bagwell is still waiting. Their careers were very similar with Bagwell's slightly better. Thomas was more muscular and becoming muscular is the only "evidence" that anyone can ever cite that Bagwell used PEDs.

  • #33
    Quote Originally Posted by WBT View Post
    It incenses me that Frank Thomas sailed right in and Bagwell is still waiting. Their careers were very similar with Bagwell's slightly better. Thomas was more muscular and becoming muscular is the only "evidence" that anyone can ever cite that Bagwell used PEDs.
    If Bagwell played in the AL and could hide behind the DH as his career progressed to get 500 HRs he gets in easily. It's a shame.

  • #34
    asshat wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? wherzwaldo might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    I think it's naive to suggest that Bagwell didn't use steroids. I also think it's naive to suggest that most any of the power hitters of his era didn't.
    That's fair. But I have to think his name would've come up in some legitimate discussion of steroid usage beyond the eyeball test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckie Finster View Post
    If Bagwell played in the AL and could hide behind the DH as his career progressed to get 500 HRs he gets in easily. It's a shame.
    He didn't need to play in the AL. He just need to play his first ten years' worth of home games in Not-the-Astrodome.

  • #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by wherzwaldo View Post
    He didn't need to play in the AL. He just need to play his first ten years' worth of home games in Not-the-Astrodome.
    lots of this. sucks he hit in the dome for a large portion of his career.

  • #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBT View Post
    It incenses me that Frank Thomas sailed right in and Bagwell is still waiting. Their careers were very similar with Bagwell's slightly better. Thomas was more muscular and becoming muscular is the only "evidence" that anyone can ever cite that Bagwell used PEDs.
    Thomas was maybe the most outspoken player in the game against steroids while he was playing.

    I will also never forget seeing Frank Thomas in Sarasota in spring training before he made the majors. He was literally three feet away from me and I thought, "That is the biggest baseball player I have ever seen in my life."

  • #37
    I'm going to Cooperstown for the induction in July.
    Havent started researching anything about it (where to fly in to, where to stay, what to avoid, etc)
    Anyone that's been that has any experiences to share, I'm all ears.

  • #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeaTexasFight View Post
    I'm going to Cooperstown for the induction in July.
    Havent started researching anything about it (where to fly in to, where to stay, what to avoid, etc)
    Anyone that's been that has any experiences to share, I'm all ears.
    Here you go chief:

    http://www.shaggytexas.com/board/sho...nduction-Recap

  • #39
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    Yep, there is no coherent on the field argument against Bagwell. And I understand the steroids argument for him, but having been next to the guy a few times I don't really see it. He was so short that his muscularity seemed more pronounced than it was, IMO. Yeah, yeah, I know he was listed at 6'0". Closer to 5'9".

  • #40
    Just saw a ballot from a guy that voted Vlad Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman and nobody else.

    Last year he voted only Griffey and Hoffman. SMDH.

  • #41
    asshat Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine probably preboards planes Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Writes for Newsday.

  • #42
    Should be his last vote.

  • #43
    Remember, some people will actually argue that Bagwell belongs in the Hall of "Very Good", but not the Hall of Fame.

    Last edited by Storm the Field; 12-15-2016 at 10:45 AM.

  • #44
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    obviously we all know that baseball HOF voters are morons, but does anyone have a legitimate explanation for the following scenario:

    You vote Hoffman in as a 1st ballot HOF(which people tend to freak the $#@! out on 1st ballot HOFs so you must think he really deserves to be in), and now in his 2nd year you drop him off your ballot.

    I can understand if you have a bunch of new 1st year eligible that you want to vote in and use them plus 6 other people you think are worth it more than Hoffman, but that only looks to be the case of 1 of the 4 voters who have dropped him.

  • #45
    Raines should make it. Guy is so underrated.

  • #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    Thomas was maybe the most outspoken player in the game against steroids while he was playing.

    I will also never forget seeing Frank Thomas in Sarasota in spring training before he made the majors. He was literally three feet away from me and I thought, "That is the biggest baseball player I have ever seen in my life."
    And had the best eye

  • #47
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    Jim Molony of Houston Chron voted for Manny, but not Clemens and Bonds. Also voted for Renteria:


  • #48
    I'm old. Pat Burrell made a Hall of Fame Ballot. Seems like only yesterday he was in my favorite college baseball picture of all time.


  • #49
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    if Jeff Bagwell was never traded and played with the Boston Red Sox, and put up the exact same numbers, and still had the same steroid suspicions, he'd be in by now. hands down, no questions asked.

  • #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
    if Jeff Bagwell was never traded and played with the Boston Red Sox, and put up the exact same numbers, and still had the same steroid suspicions, he'd be in by now. hands down, no questions asked.
    Yup. I'm a little surprised that mo Vaughn isn't in based on having a few good years in Boston.

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