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Thread: The Man In the High Castle Season 2

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 27-25 View Post
    Spoiler!
    Good point, I sorta get into the same topic a few posts above yours. We can also assume that in the ~20 years since the war, and in a parallel universe, their relationship may have cooled. In Season 1, we see that Heydrich is very much off the reservation by coming to New York to kill Smith and to defy orders from Hitler/Himmler. And if Himmler still considered him his protege, he could have easily ordered Heydrich released from John's custody and sent back to Berlin. But he let Heydrich to rot in New York (though Heydrich breaks a little too easily in that interrogation/apology scene IMO). Could be all part of what you mentioned in your spoiler though, but a big risk IMO considering how methodically brutal John Smith can be.

  • #52
    I thought this season was pretty mediocre. My main issue is that the characters aren't very good. Joe is bad character, and poorly acted at that. He shows no emotion. Not to mention his storyline sucked. The actress who plays Julianna is much better as a 1960s San Fran hippie than she is as an undercover resistance operative going undercover to infiltrate a high ranking nazi official's family. I didn't care for Julianna last year and I feel like I dislike her more this season. John Smith, however, was the best character on the show. I thought the actor who played him was very good. I wish frank had a bigger role this season and hope he's back next season. Kito was meh. The trade minister was good though. The scenes with the guy from road trip were brutal to watch. Damn, he's a bad actor.

    I'll watch next season, but I do not consider man in high castle a good show.

  • #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1010wins View Post
    I wish frank had a bigger role this season and hope he's back next season.
    Um...

  • #54
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    I thought Frank had a pretty significant role this year. Dont know how they could have increased it.

  • #55
    Quote Originally Posted by 1010wins View Post
    I thought this season was pretty mediocre. My main issue is that the characters aren't very good. Joe is bad character, and poorly acted at that. He shows no emotion. Not to mention his storyline sucked. The actress who plays Julianna is much better as a 1960s San Fran hippie than she is as an undercover resistance operative going undercover to infiltrate a high ranking nazi official's family. I didn't care for Julianna last year and I feel like I dislike her more this season. John Smith, however, was the best character on the show. I thought the actor who played him was very good. I wish frank had a bigger role this season and hope he's back next season. Kito was meh. The trade minister was good though. The scenes with the guy from road trip were brutal to watch. Damn, he's a bad actor.

    I'll watch next season, but I do not consider man in high castle a good show.
    That's the point about Juliana and its why Tagomi notes that she's more at home in our reality. She's not supposed to be comfortable with her role in the Axis wins reality. It does make her character irritating though. I imagine her story arc is going to move her more towards that hippie role once she gets back in touch with Tagomi. And with her sister alive, her sole reason for becoming a rebel is gone. We might even see a new USA show up on the Japanese controlled territory.

    Joe Blake does flat out suck. They should just kill him off.

    John Smith is, by far, the best character. Sewell has been giving emmy level performances in an otherwise poorly acted show.

    Frank should be dead, but we didn't see a body.
    Last edited by FondrenRoad; 01-11-2017 at 01:25 PM.

  • #56
    Agree Joe is the week link to the show. The Berlin storyline was good though.

    Imagine Armie Hammer in it.

  • #57
    Frank will pull a Jon Snow. My guess is they want a love triangle with him, Juliana and Joe.

    In that scene with Himler, Joe's dad and Smith, it totally reminded me of when Ned Stark showed Bariston Selmy the letter from Robert that Cersei then tore up. Two scenes of seizing power.

  • #58
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    i would have enjoyed this show better if they did not have the alternate reality. it's an interesting enough topic to explore an Axis controlled America without introducing this sci-fi element...

  • #59
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    It's not really a sci-fi element so much as the age-old metaphysical questioning of the socially constructed reality with which we've been presented. The source book was much more focused on the I-Ching and the philosophical journey of the main characters. But the world building done by Amazon is $#@!ing awesome.

  • #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    i would have enjoyed this show better if they did not have the alternate reality. it's an interesting enough topic to explore an Axis controlled America without introducing this sci-fi element...
    This is my gripe with it. I was lost with the Japanese guy having an alternate reality with a family and Julianna as his DIL. It feels so out of place. I'd much prefer that they focus on a resistance group trying to oust the Nazis and Japanese out of power. The films are confusing as $#@!. They show what life would be like if the Allies won and somehow predict the future in an alternate universe? How does this advance the plot? The masses will somehow see these films and band together against the groups that control everything? It's like a reverse scenario of The Ring.

    Smith is the only decent charectar. I don't have enough info on the Julianna/Frank arc to care about their relationship. All I know is that she had some bus accident and he somehow saved her life. Hardly a touching love story. They have about 15 minutes of screen time together over 2 seasons.

    I never read the books, so I'm not sure how faithful the show portrays them. I just think it would be so much better to explore the obvious dark themes of the Nazi's lust for power than introduce an Inception-esq story that ultimately goes nowhere. Yet, I'll keep watching in hopes that it gets more interesting.

  • #61
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    so here is the major issue I have with the ending.

    Spoiler!

  • #62
    Quote Originally Posted by KC-97HORN View Post
    so here is the major issue I have with the ending.

    Spoiler!
    Its all fiction, but you're thinking of our H bomb development from a Cold War perspective. The Soviets tested their first bomb in 1949. We got in an arms race and kept improving on nuclear weapons to stay ahead of them. We tested an H bomb in 1952. They tested one a year later. Look at our space program now versus when the Soviets were challenging us as well. We were risk takers then. Now we're grounded. Had they tried to keep up and sent someone to the moon after we did, we'd probably have a permanent base there to stay on top of them, and would have already sent men to Mars as well. The Cold War is the best thing to ever happen to US technology.

    Since the Japanese didn't appear to be making headway on making even a rudimentary device like the one the Germans dropped on DC, its easy to see why the Germans would focus on quantity of weapons rather than yield. They'd get lazy because the Japanese got lazy. They could stagnate and still stay ahead.

    The real headscratcher on weapons development are the Japanese. They're supposed to be in a Cold War, but haven't made any movement past WW2 tech in order to compete with the Germans. In fact, the Germans could have simply driven them into the sea with conventional weapons at any time. They're still taking ships to get to Japan rather than planes. You'd think that 20 years after WW2, they'd have some aircraft that could get the crown prince between Tokyo and SF non-stop, but they don't seem to. Even in our reality, they had bombers that could make SF with a stop at Midway, and they had already designed a bomber that could leave Northern Japan, bomb the continental USA, and land in France. It shouldn't have been hard at all to convert those to passenger use, but they didn't seem to do that. The only thing they do to improve their situation is to steal German bomb plans 20 years after the war ended.
    Last edited by FondrenRoad; 01-12-2017 at 02:13 PM.

  • #63
    Quote Originally Posted by FondrenRoad View Post
    Its all fiction, but you're thinking of our H bomb development from a Cold War perspective. The Soviets tested their first bomb in 1949. We got in an arms race and kept improving on nuclear weapons to stay ahead of them. We tested an H bomb in 1952. They tested one a year later. Look at our space program now versus when the Soviets were challenging us as well. We were risk takers then. Now we're grounded. Had they tried to keep up and sent someone to the moon after we did, we'd probably have a permanent base there to stay on top of them, and would have already sent men to Mars as well. The Cold War is the best thing to ever happen to US technology.

    Since the Japanese didn't appear to be making headway on making even a rudimentary device like the one the Germans dropped on DC, its easy to see why the Germans would focus on quantity of weapons rather than yield. They'd get lazy because the Japanese got lazy. They could stagnate and still stay ahead.

    The real headscratcher on weapons development are the Japanese. They're supposed to be in a Cold War, but haven't made any movement past WW2 tech in order to compete with the Germans. In fact, the Germans could have simply driven them into the sea with conventional weapons at any time. They're still taking ships to get to Japan rather than planes. You'd think that 20 years after WW2, they'd have some aircraft that could get the crown prince between Tokyo and SF non-stop, but they don't seem to. Even in our reality, they had bombers that could make SF with a stop at Midway, and they had already designed a bomber that could leave Northern Japan, bomb the continental USA, and land in France. It shouldn't have been hard at all to convert those to passenger use, but they didn't seem to do that. The only thing they do to improve their situation is to steal German bomb plans 20 years after the war ended.
    Didn't want to jump in this thread until I'd finished the season. Overall I enjoyed it but the issue Fondren brings up has bothered me as well.

    Maybe the Japanese are still reliant upon their famed fighting spirit, since that apparently made them victorious enough?

    But yeah, this has been a head scratcher for me. Why is it when we see Germans, they're carrying around H&K MP5s from the mid/late 60s and the Japanese are still using pre-war designs? It don't make no damn sense, apart from a love of tradition.

    On that same theme, everything in the American Reich seems mid-century mod with a German twist. Berlin looks like a Nazified Tomorrowland. Yet everytime you see SF, it looks like a backwater $#@!hole. Granted, we've never seen what a post-war MITHC Japanese City looks like, but still. It's as if Germany is modernizing and Japan is completely stuck in time.

  • #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad $#@! View Post
    Didn't want to jump in this thread until I'd finished the season. Overall I enjoyed it but the issue Fondren brings up has bothered me as well.

    Maybe the Japanese are still reliant upon their famed fighting spirit, since that apparently made them victorious enough?

    But yeah, this has been a head scratcher for me. Why is it when we see Germans, they're carrying around H&K MP5s from the mid/late 60s and the Japanese are still using pre-war designs? It don't make no damn sense, apart from a love of tradition.

    On that same theme, everything in the American Reich seems mid-century mod with a German twist. Berlin looks like a Nazified Tomorrowland. Yet everytime you see SF, it looks like a backwater $#@!hole. Granted, we've never seen what a post-war MITHC Japanese City looks like, but still. It's as if Germany is modernizing and Japan is completely stuck in time.
    How are you going to show fighting spirit against a nuclear bomb? The Japanese knew it to exist in MITHC and in our timeline, it put an end to that war mentality as well. They should have been doing everything possible to obtain MAD.

    I do wonder how the Germans and Japanese would even effectively spy on one another. Two cultures who believe in absolute ethnic superiority wouldn't be able to infiltrate each other. Any dissident would go to rebel groups rather than the other global power. I doubt a German would think, "I hate Nazis and their idea of ethnic superiority, so I'm going to help the Japanese come wipe most of us out and enslave the rest of us." They also wouldn't be able to get sympathizers from ethnic groups who could pass for the other because both treat everyone who isn't the same like $#@!. Their only intel would be from passive observation of consumer tech in cities with embassies.
    Last edited by FondrenRoad; 01-12-2017 at 03:24 PM.

  • #65
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    Lot's of mid ranking officers have risen through coups to become leaders. When thinking of a Nazi takeover of America it's easy to image the highest echelon of officers were at best retired, if not outright shot. Who's left? Also the current timeline is over 10 years after they nuked DC. Ten years is plenty of time for a Captain to rise in rank to General or the equivalent when all of the Generals have been "removed". On top of that, the Nazis aren't going to promote based on seniority alone among who's left. They want true believers at the top. As long a Smith toed the line he would have advanced even faster.

  • #66
    Quote Originally Posted by FondrenRoad View Post
    How are you going to show fighting spirit against a nuclear bomb? The Japanese knew it to exist in MITHC and in our timeline, it put an end to that war mentality as well. They should have been doing everything possible to obtain MAD.

    I do wonder how the Germans and Japanese would even effectively spy on one another. Two cultures who believe in absolute ethnic superiority wouldn't be able to infiltrate each other. Any dissident would go to rebel groups rather than the other global power. I doubt a German would think, "I hate Nazis and their idea of ethnic superiority, so I'm going to help the Japanese come wipe most of us out and enslave the rest of us." They also wouldn't be able to get sympathizers from ethnic groups who could pass for the other because both treat everyone who isn't the same like $#@!. Their only intel would be from passive observation of consumer tech in cities with embassies.
    I agree with this sentiment Fondren. I was just trying to account for it within the framework of the show, however feeble that accounting may be. I suppose it's just an additional point where we have to suspend our disbelief.

  • #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by FondrenRoad View Post
    but you're thinking of our H bomb development from a Cold War perspective. The Soviets tested their first bomb in 1949. We got in an arms race and kept improving on nuclear weapons to stay ahead of them. We tested an H bomb in 1952. They tested one a year later.
    my biggest concern wasnt the lack of the H Bomb existing, it was the lack of any attempt by the Germans to use science to prove/disprove its existence in their reality.


    as for the H Bomb I specifically said that I understood that in this timeline, the H-Bomb might not have been invented yet, but I guarantee that the basic scientific idea would have been already known to the Germans.

    Edward Teller theorized a fission/fusion based bomb in 1942 (obviously he would not have been available for the Nazis to utilize as a Hungarian Jew), but the idea wasnt a "singular moment in time" that only Edward could have figured out.

    however, its live construct would have been much more revolutionary. and hence the initial shock shown by Himmler.

  • #68
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    I want people to start calling me ober manager ob1

  • #69
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    I like the premise but I'm in 4 episodes of season 1 and not really enjoying it that much. Should I skip to season 2 or give it more time?

  • #70
    Quote Originally Posted by mulletpelini View Post
    I like the premise but I'm in 4 episodes of season 1 and not really enjoying it that much. Should I skip to season 2 or give it more time?
    Season 1 is better than 2, IMO. It doesn't ever really deliver on the promise of the premise.

  • #71
    Quote Originally Posted by FondrenRoad View Post
    Season 1 is better than 2, IMO. It doesn't ever really deliver on the promise of the premise.
    End of Season 2 is where it gets good. Season 2 is worth a look and more compelling than Season 1.

  • #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulletpelini View Post
    I like the premise but I'm in 4 episodes of season 1 and not really enjoying it that much. Should I skip to season 2 or give it more time?
    I personally didn't like the season 1 neutral zone episodes. I think Joe and what's her name are the weakest characters, and those episodes just focused on them. And the sheriff guy was cheesy and annoying as $#@!. I really liked it once they got back

  • #73
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    I'm in Season 2 now, had 1 playing in the background during the day just so I wouldn't miss any key parts. Completely into the idea, just seems like a $#@!in soap opera to this point, and I hate $#@!in soap operas.

  • #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    End of Season 2 is where it gets good. Season 2 is worth a look and more compelling than Season 1.
    Yeah, I do like the ending of season 2 the best, but most of the season is pretty useless. Season 1 mostly builds the world, but I liked it better overall than season 2. In season 1, all the characters had personal motivations. In season 2, there were a lot more nazi/japanese/resistance caricatures.

  • #75
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    If you can accept Brad Pitt as a 51 year old S/Sgt. in "Fury", you can accept that Capt. John Smith made it up to 0-8 in 17 years with some luck and dedication (helps that apparently, according to his wife, he engaged in some rather brutal campaigns under Gen. Heydrich for the good of the Reich after the war).

  • #76
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    Made it through, not that impressed. I'm sure I'll watch season 3 since I'm committed to the time for 1 and 2 now. I've been enjoying Sneaky Pete more than this. Cranston has that effect on a show though, damn.

  • #77
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    Made it to episode 4 Season 2 and hoping for some kind of payoff because it's slow and hard to keep watching. Will finish this season but wouldn't recommend it at this point.

  • #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCruiser View Post
    If you can accept Brad Pitt as a 51 year old S/Sgt. in "Fury", you can accept that Capt. John Smith made it up to 0-8 in 17 years with some luck and dedication (helps that apparently, according to his wife, he engaged in some rather brutal campaigns under Gen. Heydrich for the good of the Reich after the war).
    Actually, this is one of my gripes with the character development. Based on his children's age, we can reasonably assume that Obie Smith is in his mid to late 40's. It is stated that he started off as an American GI. Somewhere in there, he converted to being a Nazi after the U.S. lost the war, worked at some extermination camps, did missions in South America with Heydrich and got to be a C-Level Executive in NYC. Based on his age, he was a GI in his late 20's or early 30's. So you would have to assume that he had moved up the ranks in the military. The timeline simply doesn't make sense. How did he find the time to do all that and get married/have children in such a condensed period? That doesn't even cover the question of why Germany wouldn't implement one of their proven Aryans instead of a submissive former American.

    As stated before, I don't know anything about the source material. I assume that it matches pretty closely to the book and all the alternate reality business about the U.S. winning is why it's a Sci-Fi show instead of a fictional account. But the series desperately needs flashback sequences so that we get some sort of backstory of how the world being presented was inhabited by the main characters that we are supposed to care about. They are all very bland and have flimsy development at best.

  • #79
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    Shop keeper that sells the artifacts may be my favorite character. Does anyone else think he looks like Edward Norton? Also, Frank looks like a younger Brad Pitt

  • #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ut_ob1 View Post
    Shop keeper that sells the artifacts may be my favorite character. Does anyone else think he looks like Edward Norton? Also, Frank looks like a younger Brad Pitt
    You and subliminal horn should hook up...

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC-97HORN View Post
    my biggest concern wasnt the lack of the H Bomb existing, it was the lack of any attempt by the Germans to use science to prove/disprove its existence in their reality.


    as for the H Bomb I specifically said that I understood that in this timeline, the H-Bomb might not have been invented yet, but I guarantee that the basic scientific idea would have been already known to the Germans.

    Edward Teller theorized a fission/fusion based bomb in 1942 (obviously he would not have been available for the Nazis to utilize as a Hungarian Jew), but the idea wasnt a "singular moment in time" that only Edward could have figured out.

    however, its live construct would have been much more revolutionary. and hence the initial shock shown by Himmler.
    Yep, he had already figured out how the H-bomb would work before we bombed Hiroshima and was already working on it. It was a natural progression from the Atomic bomb.

  • #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ut_ob1 View Post
    Shop keeper that sells the artifacts may be my favorite character. Does anyone else think he looks like Edward Norton? Also, Frank looks like a younger Brad Pitt
    He reminds me of Kevin Spacey in appearance and speech style.

  • #83
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    Brent Spiner

  • #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ut_ob1 View Post
    Shop keeper that sells the artifacts may be my favorite character. Does anyone else think he looks like Edward Norton? Also, Frank looks like a younger Brad Pitt
    I agree with the Pitt resemblance, whom I have always said could have a latin twin brother named Benecio. The other dude though, no, don't see the Ed Norton, but I do see Spiner

  • #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulletpelini View Post
    I agree with the Pitt resemblance, whom I have always said could have a latin twin brother named Benecio. The other dude though, no, don't see the Ed Norton, but I do see Spiner
    Not sure if this will work...



    Last edited by ut_ob1; 01-20-2017 at 10:57 AM.

  • #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by spankytoes View Post
    Actually, this is one of my gripes with the character development. Based on his children's age, we can reasonably assume that Obie Smith is in his mid to late 40's. It is stated that he started off as an American GI. Somewhere in there, he converted to being a Nazi after the U.S. lost the war, worked at some extermination camps, did missions in South America with Heydrich and got to be a C-Level Executive in NYC. Based on his age, he was a GI in his late 20's or early 30's. So you would have to assume that he had moved up the ranks in the military. The timeline simply doesn't make sense. How did he find the time to do all that and get married/have children in such a condensed period? That doesn't even cover the question of why Germany wouldn't implement one of their proven Aryans instead of a submissive former American.

    As stated before, I don't know anything about the source material. I assume that it matches pretty closely to the book and all the alternate reality business about the U.S. winning is why it's a Sci-Fi show instead of a fictional account. But the series desperately needs flashback sequences so that we get some sort of backstory of how the world being presented was inhabited by the main characters that we are supposed to care about. They are all very bland and have flimsy development at best.
    Smith is pictures as a Captain in that atomic bomb scene which we can assume was '44 or '45. Let's be generous and assume he had just made O-3 at time of bombing and was on a big of an accelerated rate ascension because of wartime, so let's say he was 27 in 1944, making him born in 1917. So in 1962, he's 45 which is about he looks. Now that's certainly on the young side for an 0-8/0-9 (depending on the SS-Heer equivalent of 2/3 star), but again we are led to believe he got into some filthy $#@! with Heydrich and the gang (plus demonstrates an incredible acumen for HUMINT) in the 50's and rose up the ranks fast. His son is probably 14 or 15, meaning they had him a few years after the U.S. lost and things settled down to a new normal. So yeah, for that era they certainly started their family on the late side (late 20's as opposed to early 20's), but it's understandable that his duties as a 2nd Lt., 1st Lt., and then Captain in the U.S. Army kept him away from Helen and procreation.

    His age, timeline, and family make sense. What will likely be explored in S.3 will be what made him so special that out of thousands of U.S. military officers (of whom we can likely assume a substantial percentage either pledged loyalty to the Reich or were imprisoned/executed), he was the one obscure Captain to make it all the way up the ranks of the SS to basically oversee Reich Security & Intelligence in the former U.S. He doesn't just seem like a survivor, going along to get along---he seems to have a genuine love and dedication to the Reich. Where does that come from?

  • #87
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    He's a Goebbels baby

  • #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCruiser View Post
    Smith is pictures as a Captain in that atomic bomb scene which we can assume was '44 or '45.
    I like the time you spent getting that post & timelines worked out.

    And while the exact info is irrelevant, I think its important to mention, Washington was bombed on Dec 11, 1945- the flashback specifically showed that date just before we saw young Captain John Smith & wife walking into the hotel room.

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    Washington was nuked in December 1945. There was a caption before the scene started.

  • #90
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    Only took a few minutes. But you're right, it was 1945. So let's even put John as a little younger, maybe a 25 year old Captain in 1945, born in 1920. Makes him 42 in '62. He looks older than that and certainly makes it harder to accept he's made O-8/O-9 by then. I'd go with closer to 30 in 1945 and 47 in 1962. Only thing that makes that less likely is the age of his son, but you can't fault Helen and him for waiting a few years after the fallout to get freaky again.

    I can only assume he already had some demonstrable HUMINT experience in OSS (which is alluded to in the original $#@! novel) which made him respected by the SS. But then again, how effective are you at intel if you put yourself and your wife a few miles from DC minutes before the bomb is detonated. Then again, they looked like they were hurrying to that place, maybe he knew something and got as far away as he could and then went for shelter.

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